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 Post subject: Are Females Neutral ?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:03 pm 
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kangakoi
Curious,
Is there such a thing as "Neutral" females in Endlers? I read somewhere along time ago that in guppy breeding there are appearently a line of neutral females. This females can be use to outcross with trouble line to bring it back from brink of exstiction. Uncle Phil, Sifu Adrian anyone...please
I try to match the location of original collected endlers to all those lines in SwampriversAquatic but I have no idea where is north lake, south lake, water hyacinth pond and the mythtical "Black Endlers Pond" so I came to a lazy and conclusion that all females endler are "Neutral" and the males endler do all the work...Please tell me that I am wrong.....and this is an attempt of exstortion of informations.


JaSa
Well ... a lot of the colors and body colors are lockated on X and Y-chromosoms. So on the first look it is okay because males will always pass these informations on with their Y-Chromosom (Moskau for example) and females are "neutral" to them - until you get a crossing-over and an exchange takes place between X and Y chromosom. But that's not all, there are also polygenes, multiple factors, multiple gene inheritance, quantitative genes and hormon controlled genes...
So if we are talking "neutral" females, then maybe (!!!) just for a few (!) (for us visible) informations (because we see them as colors) which are on the Y-chromosom - but not even these few are set in concrete there. And there are 22 more chromosomes and they come 50% from the male and 50% from the female, no way around that.

Q: "Neutral" females?
A: No way! Phänotype somewhere between 50-100% and genotype ~4% in F1. If the two strains look almost the same you probably get away with it and wont notice but I wouldn't call a female "neutral" nor would I call that strain a pure strain anymore.

JaSa,
I will now askyou to.....please explain in "Layman" language, most of my education was from reading that wrote on supplies cardboard boxes from the UN at refugee camp, hence, what you said above went right over my head. What you trying to say above was basicly all genetic work are based on "Guessing" and by selective breeding we will be able to narrow down the "Guess" work. This is what happen in nature where you inherrid bad genes you will get....eaten....ha..ha....selective selection?


JaSa
I tried to say that there are no "neutral" females. Simply because sex means exchanging genetic information - 50% from female and 50% from male.
BUT it could look to us that female from strain 1 is "neutral" if crossed with male from strain 2 because most of the visible information we see on Endler 2 could be located on his Y-chromosom. Means the sons in F1 will look pretty much like their dad because only males have the Y-chromosom which comes in direct line from the father. So far so good ...
BUT there are 22 more genes with - I don't know - millions (?) of other informations that are hidden from our eye. And all these are exchanged 50 / 50 between the female and the male. So even if the sons look like their father, there is a hugh amount of genetic information from mom - from strain 1 - and therefor I don't think it is fair to call the results a pure strain anymore or to say a female Endler is "neutral".
JaSa


kangakoi
That's better, Thank you Jasa. Hence that is why Sifu Adrian force the issue by crossing both ways ie (MaleRedchest+FemaleFlameTail and FemaleRedchest+MaleFlameTail) = F1. His two ways treet agaisnt your one way street.....
Then the probability of 21! ie 21x20x19x18....= 5.109x10to19 combinations...and just like water and oil, the oil will float on top hence that is why son mostly look like dad(as long as he not look like the neighbour..ha..ha).
Pure, is a "Relative" world used to discribed the Water and Oil scenario and the other 22! combinations are like how much contamination are in the water that could cause the oil and water to mix....am I on the right track?

Fishpunk
« philderodez » wrote:
One more time, new blood is rarely the problem.

How does adding new blood not help address a problem with inbreeding?

kangakoi

« Fishpunk » wrote:
« philderodez » wrote:
One more time, new blood is rarely the problem.

How does adding new blood not help address a problem with inbreeding?
Brother FP,
Not sure(clear) what Uncle Phil is saying? Is there a clear law(s) regards inbreeding? what are the consequences with inbreeding? The young brother is keen to learns...when I was keeping koi this issue keep coimg up but they also not clear...

AdrianHD
Jasa is almost completely correct but needs a bit of added info wich I will provide. Perhaps make things a bit easier to understand??
Are there any real neutral females ?? Yes and No..
What can be consider a Neutral female . Best female to use =
1# A female from a wild population with none specific ( Locked) traits or genes. This type of female usually produces alike to father F1 and future generations male offspring ..Occasionally few wild type mix males that resemble original population be produce.
For best results , male breeder used should come from a well establish strain or have strong genetic traits/ characteristics ..
#2, Females from well establish strains may appear neutral in first couple of generations of offspring being produce but future generations (will produce) male offspring with traits/characteristics and some times look alike male offspring from original female strain.. (((This is how you know what strains were originally used to produce new ones)))..
So #2, type females are neutral at first and can be used to transfer traits
from one strain to the other.
Their is no real thing as a neutral female ONLY recesive females..
There is lots more complicated info than this simple explanation provided above.. Hope it was of use ..

Added recently,
If you are looking for a females that would carry male traits to next generation, Yes most endler females would be consider neutral ..
Offspring from this cross you would continue to breed back to male strain and in this manner you introduce new blood..
AdrianHD
There is a different type of inheritance similar to Neutral called complete inheritance.
This is the result of a hybrid cross between two species .. The offspring from such a cross will look almost completely pure , looking like one type of species..
This type of hybrid will continue to only produce alike species offspring. No in between or throw backs to other species..
Example = Limia X guppy = All guppy looking fish all the generations.
Example = Gambusia X sphenops = All gambusia looking fish all generations..
Complete dominance of one species..

Thanks Adrian for the info.

kangakoi
I missed out the new added bit by Sifu Adrian, so I "marked" this..hi..hi.. for future referrences.

kangakoi
Hummm...I am bumbing this one...i got a case at the moment that is under observation.....until....further notice...I kindda like the "Raise of bubbles" effects....

loakita
indonesia.gif

« AdrianHD » wrote:
There is a different type of inheritance similar to Neutral called complete inheritance.
This is the result of a hybrid cross between two species .. The offspring from such a cross will look almost completely pure , looking like one type of species..
This type of hybrid will continue to only produce alike species offspring. No in between or throw backs to other species..
Example = Limia X guppy = All guppy looking fish all the generations.
Example = Gambusia X sphenops = All gambusia looking fish all generations..
Complete dominance of one species..
this mean LimiaxGuppy & Gambusia X Sphenops produce fertile offsprings, have you try back-cross with neutral parent, other question is male limia x female guppy have the same result with male guppy x female limia... also gambusia and sphenops cross ?


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