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 Post subject: My Point of View
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 11:11 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:18 am
Posts: 546
Too Much for one topic =


#1) Me ,AdrianHD .. Have Obtained Hundreds(Possibly a Couple Thousand) Wild Collected Specimens of Poecilia From Various Locations/Countries ... I have Maintain / Bred / Hybridize and Carried out Research for the most part of my life on the livebearer subjects.. I have had the stocks, facility and Serious hobbyist fiends to help achieve great Success and knowledge of what Poecilia Livebearers are about.. I Don't think a few years in the hobby and couple tanks
Or because you have a Professional tittle will make you an authority/Expert on the subjects..
REAL Knowledge is obtain through years from actual work and experience ...
I Write from my Knowledge/Experience and when I'm not sure ? I consult with other Veteran hobbyist on the subject and obtain their point of view before I Share Mine..

#2)Poecilia Endler/Wingei/Reticulata or Hybrid = NONE are Rubbish/Trash .. All are enjoyed and part of the hobby.. Some Hobbyist prefer One type over others ..
I Enjoy them All .....
The Issues I have , Arise when the types are miss Represented by wrong labeling , Or incorrect information. .Does not Matter Origin of stock or Breeder ..
Well informed Seasoned, Experienced hobbyist cam easily identified types most of the time...
To new or uneducated hobbyist most types appear the same.. No Clues as to why or what differs each type..
Another Problem is ( Denial of stock in possession / refuse to accept reality) .. Even When Pointed Out by others(more than one) More Knowledgeable hobbyist ...

#3) The ONLY Scientifically Proven Wingei Are stocks/populations from the time period and same Locations that Armando Pou Collected under the Directions /Locations given by Professor John Endler him self... These Stocks are what I introduced to hobby and still maintain Pure ...
Not Philderodez or any other Hobbyist.. Fact= Most Campoma Stocks /collections are of unknown Purity and debatable .. None of these recent collection/stocks are Proven in any Scientific Journal ..

#4) About Phil= Phil's original stocks were AdrianHD Stocks / until the time he Began Collecting at Campoma Region ..Phil Only Had couple large tanks were he maintained all the new stocks he was bring back... Advice to me by his son Baisten ..
Phil email me pics of his collections for Identification , I Showed pics to Armando and We All (including Phil) agreed that they were not Wingei ..
After several collections from Campoma Region and much debate of the specimens being brought back by Phil not meeting the Wingei profile ? Phil's collection info/pics were now being label Cumana Collections ... What Happen ????

Also , Many of the European hobbyist which were obtaining stocks from Phil, were posting pics on internet of my obvious strains and Labeling Campoma Wingei collected by Philderodez ..
I Confronted those individuals with correct info on strain and they removed pics or added correct info.. I also Email Phil About that Issue and his Reply was He knew nothing of it..????
It Seemed Some of the new collect stocks were producing throw backs to well established AdrianHD Strains ???? You are going to Argue that wild collected stock/none line bred from different region/unrelated is going to start throwing specimens that look like Old well establish Existing Strains ?????????? (Still Happening Today)..
No More about Phil , Research the internet forums and educate ...

#5) My Debate is = I'm not going to sit and keep my mouth shut when credit is being taken from me after Many years of hard work and contribution to the hobby.... I will correct you with pics and info so that you can be educated .......
You don't go buy a top line of animal Example =(Horse from Bud Wiser ( Clydesdales Breed) Introduce new blood , all the offspring look like original Clydesdales Breed and call it your own Strain ... You are taking someone else hard work.. Un Ethical and Discouraging to other hobbyist. .

If I obtain Philderode'z Blue Star and breed it to Wild Guppy I caught ?? And the offspring Resemble Blue Star... Can I call them now AdrianHD's Blue Star ??? Why not ?? Some hobbyist think no problem ...

Same scenario = But the end result /Offpring Look very different, You have taken the proper steps to establish new traits , Then you can label differently ..
What are you going to say when asked about back ground ?? Derived from Clydesdales Breed....

If I add Red Tail to Philderodez Blue star From my stocks , Is it still Pure ...NO it's Hybrid now.. I have added Unrelated Blood/Genes... I can say they are Related Stock but not the same.

If I add Red tail by selective breeding from Related Stock/line Then , Yes still is Pure ..

This Breeding and Hybridizing becomes a bit confusing and is for a different Discussion..
These examples / info should shed some light on past discussions ..

#6) Purpose of Forums/Discussion Boards are to Share/Discuss/Learn and Enjoy Hobby..
When hobbyist Post any Pics or info, It's open for Questioning / Comments / Agree or disagree / maybe debate ..Debates are to be conducted in polite manner with Explanations/reasons for individuals point of view.. I try to show My reasoning by posting
pics from what I believe to be true from all the years of my experiences ....
I am not in the hobby as sole Judge of what is true or not.. I have Plenty of Knowledge
concerning genetics of my strains / Possible cross outcomes , Future expectations of offspring ,
If strain has remain pure or hybrid , I developed them, I know their Genetics.. I have study
the genetics of Hundreds of wild collected Reticulata , Wingei and Hybrid stocks .. Done Hundreds of Cross to learn actual outcomes.. I have Posted Hundreds Of picture to Back Up What I talk about.. I Show results.. I do Plenty of research before I enter a Debate ....

#7) I have never posted saying anyone's Stocks , Pure or Hybrid were Rubbish/Garbage..
I have given my Opinion and reasons on what I believe Stocks to be = pure or hybrid and it's possible origins ..
I do believe there have been some past & resent collections with Magnificent Specimens
being brought into the Hobby ..Only couple strains with few True Hobbyist maintaining and at times exchanging or offering to other members in hobby.. There has also been lots fraudulent information within our community ... The Biggest Problem has Become (Credibility) ...(Truth is the outmost of Reality).. Lying is followed by excuses / contradicting its self, Does not have secure Home ...
Hint to the Wise ????

I believe and have obtain stocks of wild collected Specimens by Native hobbyist .. Few of these
Stocks/Populations are believed to be Poecilia Wingei .. I had posted Pics on USA forum along with location and collectors info.. They are not confirm by scientific community .. If They are Pure Wingei Great, If they are not Also Great...In Near Future I will be Offering them ...

Yes, I believe Philderodez Has Collected Many Magnificent Poecilia .. Most not wingei ,,
Some Yes, Possible wingei,, Others Nature Hybrids .. My Opinion = They all are Special Poecilia regardless of type.. Any New Poecilia added to the Hobby is Improvement for Hobby ..

One of My debates about Philderodez Collections and pics is = Label Descriptions ..
Native Hobbyist collect in same locations and the specimens they collect do not resemble what Phil Collects ?? These are Native hobbyist that Live in Venezuela ...
Other debate = I do Believe he has collect , but Most of his stocks being offered and posted on internet as being pure Wingei , Do not display traits of what Pure wild wingei look like ..
They display Bigger than average size, Less metallic color , undefined or blending colors and patterns.. Females produce larger numbers of young.. swords of various lengths. .These are traits of hybrid Stocks..
I attribute these traits to possible mixed up of his Campoma and Cumana populations..
Maybe Accidental or Possible for development of Maxim Diversity of colors and Patterns ????

#8) I have More than 20 Wingei Proven Strains circulating the Hobby.. These strains are Well established = Reproduce alike offspring each generation . Consistent in there individual dominant traits. (Of course there always is slight variation with each strain no matter how inbred). These strains Make up the Back bone of the Hobby ..
Any Other Collector / Professor / Hobbyist come near this status or contribution to hobby ??? Any one ??? Europe ??
What were to happen if every endlers Hobbyist Eliminated any Stocks/Strains that were related to My stocks in some in some way ????

#9) I am only one that can have pure Wingei , No one else can have Pure Wingei .. Absolutely Wrong concept by other hobbyist .. If that was true ? I would not Supply/offer Clubs or anyone my stocks..
I enjoy very much Working with Endler Hybrids ..
First = Wingei are not my Only love in hobby.. I Breed/Maintain/Trade/ Sell and Give Free
Other livebearer Stocks... I work with these other livebearers to lesser extent and enjoy them
same as my endlers..

Many of times I have Donated Hundreds of (None line bred) stocks to Preservation groups, Smaller Population samples to University Students, Professors and school teacher for student
research .. Some of the Older Endler Hobbyist May recall , I offered 1,000 Wild stock/None line bred endlers to the EndlersLivebearerAssociation Preservation Group at the Beginning Endlers Hobby.. Endlers Were Divided into Groups of Hundreds for distribution
among members of Association .. Twice I Sent Large nunbers of None line bred Wingei..
... Some Members were to develop New strains to register on Newly set up list... What Happened ?? All the Main members lest the hobby, None are Left Except AdrianHD= ME..
I also Sent Karen Koomans / Netherlands Many of my stocks for Distribution.
She Email me once and wrote = She had distributes hundreds of endlers to hobbyist in Netherlands/France and Germany.. Plenty of opportunity for Hobbyist to developed their own
Strains, No one ever did ...


I may write More at later date ?? And will probably edit few times..

Any Questions about my Attitude towards individuals in hobby ?? I welcome them...


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